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proving "sole responsibility"
Moderators: nickomsk, Chris, TonyH, DeaconStreet

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Moz
Posted 2012-07-24 1:04 PM (#51993)
Subject: proving "sole responsibility"
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Hello,

 

In October, my fiancée (Russian) and I (English) will get married in Finland.  We will apply for visa in March 2013 (at the latest) for her and her daughter.

 

I've read some different experiences about proving sole responsibility for a child.  Some people had success with a letter from the father and others did not.  We will probably have one chance to get a letter (or other document) off him (in August) when their property issues will all finally be resolved.  It has been his only reason to remain in Moscow (not for his daughter), after that he will move elsewhere in Russia (or to France - at least he claims to have a woman there) and will cease contact with my fiancée.

 

My fiancée has always been the decision-maker for her daughter (education, religion, health, etc), the person who played with her, took her on holidays, cooked for her, took her shopping, changed her nappies when she was a baby, took her to the park, for walks, etc.

 

Is it likely a letter provided in August 2012 still be valid March 2013?

I’m also concerned about her daughter’s future free movement between countries; I guess immigration control for any country will want to see a letter from the father to show that it is OK for her to travel.  If he becomes the “ghost” in their lives that he has mentioned, then it won’t be possible to get

 

Is a letter from the father best way to help prove "sole responsibility"?  Or letters from teachers, doctors, etc?

Also, will we be able to apply for the spouse and dependent visa at the same time?  My fiancée doesn't want to leave her daughter alone in Russia, as no one can really care for her (at least not for more than a couple of weeks).

Moz
Posted 2012-07-24 6:14 PM (#51994 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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I think I'm hitting a language barrier with my fiancée. We were discussing court documents and I think she's confusing divorce documents with a court order stating she has sole parental responsibility. Is it possible to get such a court order in Russia?
DeaconStreet
Posted 2012-07-26 7:41 AM (#52016 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"


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bump :-)
senwd
Posted 2012-07-26 4:59 PM (#52022 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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The terminolgy may be slightly different. I don't think it's called a Court Order, as such.

In our case, a letter was drawn up by solicitors which stated that the father had no interest in the child and had not paid for her support, upbringing etc. He also consented to the child going to live in the UK (NB <---- THAT BIT is VERY important).

The letter was signed by the father and witnessed by another solicitor - in our situation the father was about 100 miles away which complicated things. All this was organised by my wife's solicitor.

The letter was then presented by my wife to her local court and the court "rubber stamped" the letter and provided a document saying that my wife had sole responsibility blah, blah. Notarised & translated. That seemed to be sufficient.

The court document is rather unhelpfully simply entitled "Consent" (and amusingly goes to great pains to state that the father is "not drunk"!).

If the father is local, I image that things will be much more straightforward - optionally a letter is drawn up saying that the father has no interest etc etc, mother & father go to the courts, make their statements, pay the nominal fee (600 rub a couple of years ago), sign the letter, court does its bit, job done.
senwd
Posted 2012-07-26 5:15 PM (#52023 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: RE: proving "sole responsibility"
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Moz - 2012-07-24 1:04 PM
Is it likely a letter provided in August 2012 still be valid March 2013?




Provided the letter/document is the one from the courts and clearly notarised, then yes it will be valid until the child is 18 (or possibly 16 in some jurisdictions).


I’m also concerned about her daughter’s future free movement between countries; I guess immigration control for any country will want to see a letter from the father to show that it is OK for her to travel.


The court document is most likely to be needed when travelling out of Russia. Our daughter's had to show it each time - although on 2 of those times she was travelling by herself.

Possibly when entering the UK - most likely on the 1st entry. (we've never been asked to show it when coming into the UK other than 1st entry).

In/out of other countries, unlikely. But you & your wife probably have to do something if she's travelling alone. Usual airline regs.

Best thing to do is get a notarised copy of the court document and have that to hand just in case. You soon get an idea of when you might/might not need it.



Is a letter from the father best way to help prove "sole responsibility"?  Or letters from teachers, doctors, etc?


See above reply.


Also, will we be able to apply for the spouse and dependent visa at the same time? 


Yes.

You include your daughter on your wife's form. NOTE That their visa status will be interlinked because your daughter is a dependent.

Moz
Posted 2012-07-26 5:42 PM (#52024 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Thanks, mate. Awesome information! Glad to know we can do it while he's still in Moscow. By September, he will have left for another part of Russia or France and she's worried he won't be reachable.
DeaconStreet
Posted 2012-07-26 6:40 PM (#52025 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"


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thanks Kevin. I knew that an expert would come along in the end. :-)
Moz
Posted 2012-07-26 6:47 PM (#52026 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Kevin, it truly takes a load off my mind. I owe you big time.

Edited by Moz 2012-07-26 6:48 PM
Moz
Posted 2012-07-26 7:54 PM (#52027 - in reply to #52022)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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The letter was then presented by my wife to her local court and the court "rubber stamped" the letter and provided a document saying that my wife had sole responsibility blah, blah. Notarised & translated. That seemed to be sufficient.

 Was the father's attendance at court required?  (It could be a problem getting him to do that, but should be able to get him to sign a document.)

DeaconStreet
Posted 2012-07-27 9:32 AM (#52037 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"


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if you read Kevins account - then the answer would be No. I recall this from other posts also. A letter is signed by the Father (WITNESSED by a solicitor, etc) and that letter is presented to the court.
Mel
Posted 2012-07-27 11:31 AM (#52042 - in reply to #52037)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"


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Location: In the Windmills of my mind...

Only one person needs to attend the court, this could also be a lawyer, which I strongly reccomend the use of in this case, as Russian Law is a minefield....

A signed and notarised doccument from the father, stating that he relinquishes his parenthood of the child (Deprivation of perenthood), should be presented to a court for verification, the doccument should state that the father has never undertaken any form of responsiblity for the child, nor made any decisions about the child, nor has he paid any maintenance for it, and has no intention of carrying out any of these stated activities in the future for the child... He should also state that he has no objection to the mother taking the child out of Russia, I would also add into the doccument that he allows the child to be adopted by another person subject to the mothers and childs wishes...

The Lawyer and court will do the rest, and a doccument will be issued giving sole responsibility for the child to the mother...

Also suggest the this doccument is apostiled in Russia then duly translated as required.....

BEWARE, This legal doccument does not stop the father from making further demands in the future, nor does it stop the child from seeing its father/grand parents etc etc, as they all have rights recognised by law...

The doccument also does not remove the need of the father to pay for his child, he still bears the financial responsibility as described within the law....

HTH



Edited by Mel 2012-07-27 11:32 AM
Moz
Posted 2012-07-29 6:25 AM (#52073 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Hi Mel,

Thank you also for your advice. You and Kevin have been fantastic. At least now we have a cleared idea of what to do and hopefully the father will be willing to cooperate.

Thanks for the clarification about court attendance - that's one place my fiancée is sure he would refuse to go, so we wanted to make 100% sure.
senwd
Posted 2012-07-29 12:04 PM (#52075 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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The "court" thing is no big deal really. We're not talking supreme court, or county court style of things and all that paraphernalia. If anything it's more like a small local magistrates court. Read the document, do you understand, sign it, go away. Nothing to fear - unless you've otherwise been a naughty boy.
Moz
Posted 2012-08-04 1:22 PM (#52211 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Hello all. Thank you for the guidance so far. Before consulting a solicitor, I started drafting a letter as one problem we are anticipating is his pride (rather than care for his daughter). We probably just have one opportunity of getting his co-operation and signing documents, so it's important we get the wording right first time. I decided it's best to first create a draft so that any solicitor will have an idea of the type of content and language that will be "acceptable" by him. Mel and Kev (and if there's anyone else who has gone through the same), would you be willing to give me some feedback on what I've drafted? It's a bit watered down from what you both advised, but hopefully still enough.
senwd
Posted 2012-08-04 7:33 PM (#52214 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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I'll take a look - but realise that what's "acceptable to him" and what is "required by you" may well be 2 different things.
Moz
Posted 2012-08-04 7:51 PM (#52215 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Thank you, Kevin. I shall send it to you a bit later. Just got home after the fun twelve hours at work, so time to clean up (I feel like I work in very dirty a hamster cage).

Yeah, this (what's required vs what he'll accept) has been a big worry and I wasn't sure if it would be possible, really. I'm hoping, but also realise it's a long-shot.
gkt
Posted 2012-08-05 12:10 PM (#52225 - in reply to #52214)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Hello there, maybe also try to include letters from schools, receipts, doctors etc....i think these help too

Edited by gkt 2012-08-05 12:12 PM
Moz
Posted 2012-08-05 1:30 PM (#52226 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Hi,

We were discussing that. We can easily provide it from the past year (they are currently living in Moscow), but before that they were living with my fiancée's mother in a village for two years (they had to move there due to the separation). And before that, in Moscow. So I am not sure how much credibility these people would have as they will have known her daughter for just a year, or two.
senwd
Posted 2012-08-05 5:30 PM (#52230 - in reply to #51993)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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UKBA want quality - not quantity. The court document containing the key items which they are looking for is what they require (with all usual signatory, stamps, translations & kitchen sinks).

Try posing yourself the acid test - "so what?".

"I've got a letter from a school" - so what?
"I've got a letter from a doctor" - so what?
"I've got a bunch of receipts" - so what?

"I've got an official document issued by a court" - so what? Ah. OK...




Edited by senwd 2012-08-05 5:36 PM
Rasboinik
Posted 2012-08-05 6:49 PM (#52233 - in reply to #52230)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"


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senwd - 2012-08-06 3:30 AM UKBA want quality - not quantity. The court document containing the key items which they are looking for is what they require (with all usual signatory, stamps, translations & kitchen sinks). Try posing yourself the acid test - "so what?". "I've got a letter from a school" - so what? "I've got a letter from a doctor" - so what? "I've got a bunch of receipts" - so what? "I've got an official document issued by a court" - so what? Ah. OK...

First of all I fully echo the above statement.

 

You can also think of it differently, for example, you go into a shop to buy an item the shop owner tells you that the item costs £25.

 

Do you feel the need to inform the shop owner that:

You have £XYX in your pocket.
You have £XXYY in your current account.
The suit you are wearing cost you £XYXY.
Your mortgage is £XXYYXXYY.
Your salary is £YYXX.
And then you dig into your pockets to pull out documents to prove your above statements.
No, you pass the money over to the shop owner and the shop owner passes the item over to you.

 

 

Simples, give the UKBA what they need and the decision regarding your application will be dealt with promptly, drown the UKBA with superfluous documents and then do not be surprised that the decision regarding your application takes forever



Edited by Rasboinik 2012-08-05 6:51 PM
Mikle
Posted 2017-10-15 7:17 PM (#91657 - in reply to #52022)
Subject: Re: proving "sole responsibility"
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Hi Please for give my forwardness but could you please send me a sanitised copy of the document. We desperately need it because to go through the court system to remove the fathers rights will take time and my wife wont be able to stay in the UK while the child is prevented from joining us until we have proof of sole parental control.

Best Regards
Mike@kimstyle.co.uk

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