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Shengen visa update effective from 14th January
Moderators: nickomsk, TonyH, Chris, DeaconStreet

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y-ola
Posted 2013-01-15 6:56 PM (#55092)
Subject: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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http://ria.ru/world/20130114/918076563.html?utm_source=gismeteo&utm...
Rasboinik
Posted 2013-01-15 9:40 PM (#55093 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: RE: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Very good information.

But as far as I am aware this information does not apply to or affect  Russian Citizens that are applying for a Schengen Visa under the EU Directive 2004_38_EU
A spouse of someone who is citizen of a country that is a member of the EU should apply for a Schengen visa under the EU Directive 2004_38_EC which makes it much easier to obtain a Schengen Visa + the visa is free of charge.
TonyH
Posted 2013-01-15 9:55 PM (#55094 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Not just the spouse
Rasboinik
Posted 2013-01-15 11:08 PM (#55097 - in reply to #55094)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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TonyH - 2013-01-16 7:55 AM Not just the spouse

 

OK, I stand corrected   

The correction is the EU directive applies to all direct family members.

Mel
Posted 2013-01-16 1:37 PM (#55114 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: RE: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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y-ola - 2013-01-15 11:56 PM http://ria.ru/world/20130114/918076563.html?utm_source=gismeteo&utm_medium=cpm&utm_content=2281545&utm_campaign=gismeteo_ria[/QUOTE]

This ONLY applies to Russians who wish to visit Shengen zone countries........

Its got the hallmark of the British Govt stamped all over it.....

Mel
Posted 2013-01-16 2:41 PM (#55116 - in reply to #55114)
Subject: RE: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Mel - 2013-01-16 6:37 PM

y-ola - 2013-01-15 11:56 PM http://ria.ru/world/20130114/918076563.html?utm_source=gismeteo&utm_medium=cpm&utm_content=2281545&utm_campaign=gismeteo_ria[/QUOTE]

This ONLY applies to Russians who wish to visit Shengen zone countries........

Its got the hallmark of the British Govt stamped all over it.....

Russians living in Russia, and not family members of a EU citizen.....

y-ola
Posted 2013-01-16 3:58 PM (#55118 - in reply to #55116)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Russia and Europe is fine progress but as soon UK pulls out it will be just further rip off by a totally corrupt UK !!!
y-ola
Posted 2013-01-16 4:02 PM (#55119 - in reply to #55116)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Russia and Europe is fine progress
Malcolm
Posted 2013-01-16 9:09 PM (#55124 - in reply to #55118)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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y-ola - 2013-01-16 3:58 PM

Russia and Europe is fine progress but as soon UK pulls out it will be just further rip off by a totally corrupt UK !!!


Unlike the totally uncorrupt Russia and EU eh?

Put a sock in it for fuck's sake Kevin, you don't know what you're talking about.
scampypants
Posted 2013-01-24 5:33 AM (#55610 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Bump while UK sleeps
DeaconStreet
Posted 2013-06-28 4:25 PM (#58129 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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2 apologies from T and I.

firstly - for being away so long. we're fine but are on a bit of a mission at the moment.

secondly - for resurrecting this post. our question: can our Russian immediate family use the EU Directive 2004/38/EC to apply for Schengen visas to join us in another EU state (France for example). we're thinking of doing a bit of a working visit and well - you'll guess what we're thinking maybe...

cheers Guys
Rasboinik
Posted 2013-06-29 3:17 AM (#58140 - in reply to #58129)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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DeaconStreet - 2013-06-29 2:25 AM 2 apologies from T and I. firstly - for being away so long. we're fine but are on a bit of a mission at the moment. secondly - for resurrecting this post. our question: can our Russian immediate family use the EU Directive 2004/38/EC to apply for Schengen visas to join us in another EU state (France for example). we're thinking of doing a bit of a working visit and well - you'll guess what we're thinking maybe... cheers Guys

The simple answer is "Yes", the real trick is getting a Bureaucrat to understand the basics.

 

For a easier to read but non legally binding guide to the EU Directive 2004/38/EC(based upon the Directive which is a legal document) click this link http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement.pdf  the important parts of the guide are Chapters 2 -5  (pages 6 - 13).

 

For the actual directive itself (the legally binding document)
In English  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF

In French http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:FR:PDF

 

It is probably best to print out the directive in English (that way you can read and highlight the relevant parts) and in the language of the Bureaucrat so that the Bureaucrat can read the directive in his/her language (it is also possible to highlight the relevant parts in the foreign language because the pages are identical).

 

 

For those that require the directive in a different language just follow this link  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0038:en:NOT and just download the relevant language by clicking on the link under the required language.

 





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Mel
Posted 2013-06-29 4:20 AM (#58141 - in reply to #58140)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Raffi,

I think that Roy does not wish his wifes parents to visit them in (Say) France, but to live with him on a more permanent basis, and eventually get them into the UK....

Roy,

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think that articles 9-11 are more relevant to your future plans....

I think that first and foremost, you will have to become "Permanent Residents" yourselves, ie have a place to live, job, residence card, bank accounts showing income, or own business in the country of choice etc, etc,....

Thereafter it should be a doddle....

I know of several Uk residents, who have successfully taken this route....

HTH...

TonyH
Posted 2013-06-29 8:16 AM (#58144 - in reply to #58129)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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DeaconStreet - 2013-06-28 4:25 PM

2 apologies from T and I.

firstly - for being away so long. we're fine but are on a bit of a mission at the moment.

secondly - for resurrecting this post. our question: can our Russian immediate family use the EU Directive 2004/38/EC to apply for Schengen visas to join us in another EU state (France for example). we're thinking of doing a bit of a working visit and well - you'll guess what we're thinking maybe...

cheers Guys


A shared mission !!

I've got it down to one question. What period of time needs to lapse to be regarded as having exercised your FM rights allowing you to use 2004/38/EU ?


Currently I see no period of time ie instant but a period of time waiting for a resident card
DeaconStreet
Posted 2013-06-29 5:35 PM (#58145 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Thanks Guys

Raffi - very useful to see links to the directive in other languages. Hadnt seen this site. Ta!!

Mel - as ever, you're on the ball. We have to be 'economically active'. We need to live/work/eat/sleep/spend in the EU until we get a resident card. The RU folks need to be with us for all of this time and will not need RC's themselves. Tony - That should be approx. 3+ months and must be no more than 6 months. we can use our English bank and do not need to worry about taxes, etc, all that stuff is simple. Probably we should then make out an EEA2 FP application from France and wait for that. But it does seem very tempting just to head for a ferry port and ask for entry on Code 1A stamps. They shouldn't refuse, but if the EO is inexperienced we might hit problems. Copies of the directive and rights of the SS route will be of help.

My worry is getting the RU folks to France. The Schengen might be refused (cos of lack of reasons to return to RU) unless we come clean and say that it's to assist an entry into the UK. Not sure what the relations are like between Fr/UK immigration and whether this might be blocked. Need a cast iron reason to get the schengens, or get a Schengen for an easier EU state and then enter France. I want to do the French route cos of proximity of UK (for urgent biz trips if needed) and I've got the language.
TonyH
Posted 2013-06-29 9:40 PM (#58148 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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If your already in France when you apply for a schengen your doing the application under 2004/38/EU anyway as you have exercised your rights and unlikely they will get a refusal. As I read the rules they can't be asked for any information other than providing their passports when applying for a schengen ?
Rasboinik
Posted 2013-06-29 9:43 PM (#58149 - in reply to #58145)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Mel,
As I see it regardless of the final result the first and most important step is to get the relatives into the EU, once the relatives are in the EU then it is quite easy to carry on with the formalities therefore articles 9 - 11 are the second steps.
You are though right about the "Permanent Residency" issues.

 

Roy,

Getting your relatives into France under the EU directive 2004/38/EC is relatively easy, they do not need to provide proof that the have reasons to return to Russia all that they have to provide is proof of "family ties", the only grounds for a visa rejection would be on grounds of public policy, public security or public health (not that I am in any way implying that your relatives would come under any of those categories).

 

Have a look at the Schengen visa form http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/IMG/pdf/visagb.pdf and pay special attention to the comment at the bottom of the first page:

* The questions marked with * do not have to be answered by family members of EU or EEA citizens (spouse, child or dependent
ascendant). Family members of EU or EEA citizens have to present documents to prove this relationship.

You will see that questions 19 & 20 marked with * (that do not have to be answered by  family members of EU or EEA citizens) are the questions that are about providing proof of return to the country of origin and questions 34,35 & 36 (also marked with a * are mainly about means of support  which are irrelevant to family members.

 

From the guide

 

Page 7
Other family members such as siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles and other relatives
have the right to have their entry and residence facilitated by the host EU country if:
• they are dependant on you; or
• they are members of your household; or
• where serious health grounds strictly require your personal care.
Your non-dependant parents or children of more than 21 years would also benefit from the
right to have their entry and residence facilitated if they live with you.
EU countries cannot automatically exclude a particular category of family members.

 

Page 8
Right to reside
The group comprising other family members and partners have no ‘automatic’ right to
accompany you to the host EU country or join you there. Their rights are subject to the
host EU country’s discretion.
They have the right to have entry and residence ‘facilitated’. This essentially means that
the host EU country should examine their family ties with you and, if they consider that
you form a genuine family, they should be treated on the same footing as family members
such as spouses or children.
The host EU country is obliged to undertake an extensive examination of their personal
circumstances and refusal of entry and residence to those family members must be
justified, notified in writing and is subject to an appeal.

 

On a different note, as Mel said you do have to register with the authorities of the country that you living in and establish residency.

You do have to pay taxes, and as far as I am aware you also have to open a local bank account.

 


  unless we come clean and say that it's to assist an entry into the UK.

Far too much information.
I am not saying that anybody should tell fibs but I am saying that at times it is better to keep certain information to oneself.
As I see it if that information is exposed I can hear the final conversation "So you are not really exercising your right of free movement within the EU, you have just given us grounds to refuse the visa"

 

Tony,
With regards to the time frame, as I see it the minimum will be about six months, first of all you have to register with the authorities and that can take quite a while (bureaucracy) and once you are registered you will then have to go through the issues of registering your relatives and apply for and get their residency cards, to the best of my knowledge that takes a minimum of three months.

 

EDIT :
I was writing this post while Tony made the post above.



Edited by Rasboinik 2013-06-29 9:45 PM
DeaconStreet
Posted 2013-06-29 11:23 PM (#58152 - in reply to #58149)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Thanks Raffi

I should have looked at the Schengen application form earlier. Now its very clear.

This has answered a lot of questions which I'd had. Brilliant! Obviously, there's no need to be thinking/worrying about any of this stuff..
Rasboinik - 2013-06-29 9:43 PM

  unless we come clean and say that it's to assist an entry into the UK.

Far too much information.



The finite realities of taxes and the like I can think of later. The thoughts are to open a satellite office of the business to 'open up' a French market and funding would come from the UK. Accountant stuff I guess..

Is that correct though? - about Resident cards for the RU folks, I'd read on some of the immigration boards that this hadn't been necessary for the non-EEA family member. There's not much info on the web - except for where this is the spouse and everything that I've seen says that other party doesn't need a card, so assumed that the same would follow for Mother/Son..

I'm imagining a RC (for me) taking approx. 4 months. If this were to be necessary for the RU folks - then this doubles that period - which has to be budgeted for.

My other question is (once I/we have our RC's, whether to go for the Family Permit and sit in France and wait for this, or just head for the ferry port with our docs nicely bundled - what do you think?

thanks in advance!!
Rasboinik
Posted 2013-06-30 12:09 AM (#58153 - in reply to #58152)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Roy,


The first issue,

As I see it you do have to fully exercise you right of free movement within the EU and that does not include just a paperwork exercise, that does mean that you have to set up a home in a EU country.

 

With regards to your other questions, sorry but I am not a full expert on these issues, as far as I am aware the individual with the most experience and knowledge of these issues is "wiz" but he does not visit this forum too often (it might be an idea to PM him).


The other option is to have a read here, the UKBA European Casework Instructions http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/ecis/

Good Luck finding the relevant information on the UKBA pages

DeaconStreet
Posted 2013-06-30 8:21 PM (#58167 - in reply to #55092)
Subject: Re: Shengen visa update effective from 14th January


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Thanks Raffi

of course - we would intend the whole business - setting up in France for a long haul. work rest and play.

have sent the man an email but he's probably dozing in a corner of the garden somewhere.

we should write this up - for others - as we progress. thanks for all your help

R & T
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